v7  (Read 2825 times)

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Powerage_

v7
« on: 16 Mar 2017, 12:39:23 »
I know everyone right now will be looking at the title and already disagree with me. I think we should do something like a v7 and here are my reasons why.

First off around 50% of the nbz are owned by 10 players who aren't really spending it, I read on a post about v6 was to try improve the economy and more trading between players, but when 50% of nbz is staying with 10 players (Start of 2016 was only 35%) who don't spend it and probably 48% of the left-over nbz are in banned or inactive players. So really not much nbz are in player to player trades. So I think a v7 will help clear all the nbz being stuck in like a black hole. Now I know most of the people will not be really impressed with this but the ones who came here in v5 might be impressed with my next point.

Also how good was v5 to others. I didn't come in v5 but I've read and heard so much about how good it was and a bit about v5 wild world. After reading all about this I've started feeling a bit emotional over v5 being gone even though I didn't play v5 and came in v6. I see a lot of the older players really missing v5 and I think if we do a v7 like a v5 we could go back to the 45-60 players on. (I've heard it was around 45-60 players been on at once before). Also I heard it was free wild world when you didn't need to claim chunks like you had like no limits. So you could build rail tracks to your friends houses.

After all I think if we did a v7 something like a v5 the server would grow more. Even though I haven't been on v5, just hearing lots about it persuades me to want to play it. I would love to see something like this happen and thank you for your time, HnK_ (And yes I know my Paragraphs, topic sentences and spelling/use of words isn't the best but english isn't my best so don't judge)
« Last Edit: 16 Mar 2017, 12:53:59 by HnK_ »

Nariaki

Re: v7
« Reply #1 on: 16 Mar 2017, 15:47:17 »
Indeed, I will disagree.
You and me already had a debate about this a few days ago, but I felt like I didn't get to say everything I wanted to back then.

About the first topic, there really is no issue about money not being in circulation. The server doesn't hold a limit to how much money the players can hold collectively, and money CAN be generated infinitely (players gain money without drawback from either killing hostile mobs and through selling to /shop). Besides, this issue would re-appear every few years, and we can't reset the server ENTIRELY simply because 10 people hold more than 50% of the server's collective economy, because switching versions would mean that all buildings, towns, and mcMMO levels would disappear. In the end, more people would be left unhappy than happy.

As a person who used to play on v5, it really wasn't better than what v6 is now, looking back at it. VIP was only held for a limited amount of time, and you'd have to renew it to keep the rank. At the same time, VIPs got x2 the mcMMO gain as regular members got, which wasn't very fair.
The economy spiraled out of control easily because of how much 100 Nbz could buy and could be obtained, with diamonds being around twice (200-ish Nbz), making this version's economy inflated enough to make diamonds worth something you wouldn't be able to get by simply selling 3 stacks of dirt.
Also, the wild world was (I think) one of the reasons why we switched over to v6, because of the uncontrolled building. Anyone could come and grief/ruin your buildings, which makes an anarchtic wild world highly un-ideal. Becuase of that, the Town world was far more popular to use, which made it oversaturated.
Sure, we'd have 45-60 users online at the same time, but that's because the staff held weekly events during the weekends, only then would we achieve such numbers. Now, the staff has "grown up". Foob and WW are no longer admins, which leaves only Larry, staff can't always come on for such events as they're busy with their real life.

Doing a v7 (v5 brought back) would be worse for the server. Most players left the server because of how long time it took to update the server from v5 to v6 (longer than what was planned, 6+ months), not because they didn't like the new system. Doing such an update, albeit probably shorter, could potentially kill the potential for new players, leaving only regulars and long-time players.

pidgeot72

Re: v7
« Reply #2 on: 16 Mar 2017, 22:43:38 »
As a person who was also playing in v5, I will agree that v6 is better. The only way you could guarantee safe land was to join a town but that  restricts the sizing of what you want to build. Yes, more people played in v5 but a lot of the people who played in v5 are grown up. Minecraft has also started to die down in popularity, so less people in general are playing. Nothings wrong with the server really, all plugins are perfectly functioning, the economy is good ( yes, about 50% of the nbz are owned by 10 people but about 40% of the worlds money is owned by 20 people, and theres no 'flip the switch and start over button' for the world)

The thing that made the server great back in the day was the community and its family friendliness, I'm not saying that it isn't now but since a lot of people played for the community back then and a lot of people just grew up and stopped playing, more stopped playing because others were leaving and it just goes on until theres what we have left today (I'm aware I'm guilty of this too).

Also survival towny non-pvp servers aren't as popular as mini game servers, it takes time and effort and dedication to get far in this server and some people just don't have the time.

Anyway, i just thought i should participate on this post, it peaked my interest because I've had many debates over the years about this type of topic. See you guys sometime in the distant future, time for me to crawl back into my shell :3

(Everyone loved the days of v5 (Myself included) but this could be exaggerated due to nostalgic reasons too. V5 was great because the community made it great. 50 -60 people on daily that co-opperated and were civilized was what made v5 great. The server was definitely flawed back then.)

ItsLawrence

Re: v7
« Reply #3 on: 17 Mar 2017, 09:57:21 »
Firstly thank-you for putting forward some honest feedback, I very much appreciate that you've done so. I will however try to go through and bring forward a discussion on a few of the points you've made, hopefully so we can either look into how we could solve your concerns or to clarify things. I'd appreciate a rebuttal if you have any feedback on what I've said though; I'm happy to have an open discussion.

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First off around 50% of the nbz are owned by 10 players who aren't really spending it, I read on a post about v6 was to try improve the economy and more trading between players, but when 50% of nbz is staying with 10 players (Start of 2016 was only 35%) who don't spend it and probably 48% of the left-over nbz are in banned or inactive players.
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I can understand what you're saying but despite the fact they might hold many millions of the overall economy that doesn't mean they're not specifically spending it; any smaller transactions they make are more likely to go unnoticed because it makes up a smaller percentage of their overall wealth.

Secondly just because they hold this money it doesn't mean that other players can't hold it too, as Adam suggested above. Unlike in the real world the economy where wealth is disproportionately actually shared out, in Noobstown the total amount of money is seemingly infinite, so just because one player has a million Nbz, that doesn't mean it's any harder or less likely for you to get that too. They've spent years building that money up over time, which is something you or any other player could do too.

Lastly on this point, them holding that money shouldn't really impact you or any other player in any way, it's not like we're all relying on them to share it out for us to get money. If you literally just ignore the fact they've got that money it doesn't change how the server operates at all, if anything them having it is a benefit in that they could share it if they wanted to.

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not much nbz are in player to player trades.
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While I agree that the amount of money generated from /shop way exceeds the total values of player-to-player trades, it still doesn't mean that there aren't player trades. Barring a few gimmicky items from villager trades, there is currently no ability to purchase anything directly from the server; if you want to buy something the only way to do this is from another player at the moment. Since the chest shop sign changes in September last year there have been over 50 million Nbz in trades through the signs, and that's made up of the average transaction being just over 1.2k Nbz. That's quite a lot considering the player numbers we have had more recently. Plus there is /auction and direct trades between players, which normally tend to be higher value 'one of a kind' type items or bulk trades.

I agree that a lot of the money has become locked in to certain players, but that has been built up over the years by those players, and it doesn't in any way mean there isn't still an infinite amount of money for everyone else.

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So I think a v7 will help clear all the nbz being stuck in like a black hole.
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Surely in that sense we'd just end up in this exact same point again in a few years? If you have a way you think we could combat the black hole I'd love to hear and potentially implement something.

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Also how good was v5 to others. I didn't come in v5 but I've read and heard so much about how good it was and a bit about v5 wild world. After reading all about this I've started feeling a bit emotional over v5 being gone even though I didn't play v5 and came in v6. I see a lot of the older players really missing v5
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I think a lot of what you hear about V5 stems from a nostalgia effect that things seemed 'better back then', when really we were at a much worse point for progression than we are now.

While I agree the player numbers were higher back then I don't think that's because the server was any better at that time, it was different though. As both Adam and Pidge above suggest, V5 had a number of major problems which meant we needed to act and move forward if we wanted to sustain the server longer term. The economy was different because of the server shops available (it again had the money pooling with certain players) but also suffered from constantly reducing prices as players attempted to undercut others. Because of the free-build options much of the world was completely trashed, something that either meant it was difficult for new players to find a nice unaltered spot, or put off players when the first thing they saw was a world of dirt pillars or big pits. There was also constant mass-griefing and stealing of blocks because we had no protected areas outside of towns, this meant if you lived in the wilderness you had to be constantly monitoring your things or simply hide away from anyone new.

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and I think if we do a v7 like a v5 we could go back to the 45-60 players on. (I've heard it was around 45-60 players been on at once before).
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I do hope we'll attract both new players back to the server and see some of the older players come back, and I have been worked on and am still working on loads of changes to make the server easier to play on and hopefully more enjoyable, this does take time though.

The numbers changed dramatically between V5 and V6 for a number of reasons. Firstly many people didn't want us to reset at the time (something that might cause similar upset with your V7 idea) so fought back at the idea of doing so. Several things meant there was a long delay between the versions that caused certain people to give up on waiting for V6 to arrive, and once it did arrive there were people who didn't like the limitation changes we'd initially implemented, since then we have addressed most of those initial complains in some way though.

Just to touch a bit on what Pidge's reply explained, I believe that the people who play on Minecraft servers as a whole has changed massively since V6 started. I'm going to generalise a lot here, but most of the new Minecraft players are younger people who simply want a few minutes of fun with instant gratification or to do something that they compete against their friends with potentially very specific predefined goals they can hop on and do. Noobstown offers limited options for both of those things, we cater for a completely different audience in some senses; we offer a very long-term gameplay option with levelling up taking literally years and don't force anyone into doing things they don't want to, Noobstown is offering a survival experience where you set your own aims and work towards them as you want to. The Minecraft player base generally has moved away from a pure survival experience; either people have grown out of the game as they've played it for years and decided to move on, or most of those players who are still interested in survival will have already found somewhere they enjoy sticking at, in the same way that we have many dedicated players who stick to Noobstown.

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I heard it was free wild world when you didn't need to claim chunks like you had like no limits. So you could build rail tracks to your friends houses.
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You are correct in that the wilderness areas were completely free-build, but see above for why we chose a different approach in V6. If you can think of a nice way we could allow you to build between land (for things like tracks) but still keep things fair and safe I'd love to hear it and see what I can do about implementing it.

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After all I think if we did a v7 something like a v5 the server would grow more.
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Just to round things off I can definitely understand why you might think that, the fresh options would give everyone a level field and a chance to start over. My concern in doing so would be that we'd alienate the smaller numbers of existing players we have right now. Lots of players who are here right now don't want to lose the things that they've spent literally years working on or they're in the middle of doing. If we look back to the experience of a lot of players between V5 and V6 there was a lot of backlash over our plan to reset things.

I'd much rather try to fix the concerns you've got currently than simply declare them as unsolvable and just delete thousands of hours of hard work and memories of hundreds of people.



As I said right at the start, I am open for a discussion of this topic, while I have tried to explain my reasoning I would love for you to make comments back of your opinion on anything I've said so I can try to solve or address some of your concerns.

Powerage_

Re: v7
« Reply #4 on: 17 Mar 2017, 11:23:09 »
Surely in that sense we'd just end up in this exact same point again in a few years? If you have a way you think we could combat the black hole I'd love to hear and potentially implement something.
I had the idea of removing nbz from banned and inactive players(The ones who haven't been on for like a half a year to a year or more). This would give us a real figure of how much nbz are being used around in the economy, you might be thinking what if the player gets unbanned or comes back. I'm sure it will be more than simple to return any lost nbz. I also firmly believe most banned players who have been banned fairly don't really come back to appeal again. I would like to include that you can't exactly force anyone to get rid of their nbz that's why it can be somewhat hard to fix the issue. It definitely comes down to new players to offer services or goods what the players with nbz wants.
Other than that I agree on the rest of your views but I will try to come up with a way to allow building between land without causing any issue to others.
You are correct in that the wilderness areas were completely free-build, but see above for why we chose a different approach in V6. If you can think of a nice way we could allow you to build between land (for things like tracks) but still keep things fair and safe I'd love to hear it and see what I can do about implementing it.

craftymatt13

Re: v7
« Reply #5 on: 17 Mar 2017, 21:56:42 »
I wouldn't want to see a V7 reset either.

 I played V5 for  while and saw some of the issues that brought about V6. Griefing was one of the big ones, which V6 has largely done away with. Trust me, logging on and finding your build trashed was not fun, and roll-backs were a little weird at times.  With the latest update on the Wild commands, granting and removing build perms is easy, and greatly reduces the chances of your build being griefed yet allows for impromptu, temporary build teams. As far as building rail tracks to a friends place, you can do that, as long as it within reach of you free-chunk and money resources. If it were totally free, there would be rail tracks crossing the wild making those chunks unusable to others.

I think Larry has a point about the nostalgia effect. A few of the players that complained loudest after the transition to V6 were also the ones who complained the most during V5.

As for the noobz distribution, that doesn't really impact anybody but the holder of the noobz. The fact that player Xyz has 100,000,000 + noobz doesn't impact a player that joins today from making the same number of noobz, it will just take a while! Which is really what the top money list shows. It is a list of long time players for whom collecting money is an important part of the Game. For me, my noobz represent the commitment and dedication to optimizing sheep ranching to provide a low cost, high volume, dependable supply of wool for noobstown's building needs. (yes, that's a plug for The Shop! :D).

I'm not really sure what removing the noobz  held by inactive/banned players would do since those noobz would not be redistributed, and if they were, would only bump everybody up the same amount and have no real impact on the economy. What you might be looking for is a new way to display the stats, plus a new stat or two. The stats (money, mcMMO, etc) are a little stale. Many of the top 10 listed have been inactive, or log on only rarely. Maybe if the lists were to list the active players (10 hours in the last 30 days, for example) with the option to see the whole list. Some new stats might be the amount of noobz used in sign shops, the amount of noobz used in the player to player trade screen, and the amount of noobz traded by /pay [player] 1000. This might give a better idea of the activity in the economy. I don't know if there are logs for this info though.

I enjoyed V5 enough to wait on V6, but I would not want to go through another reset.

mrfloris

Re: v7
« Reply #6 on: 19 Mar 2017, 03:38:23 »
Without reading this thread: dont reset the world. its suicide.