Kick starting the Economy  (Read 3367 times)

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Foob

Kick starting the Economy
« on: 12 Feb 2014, 10:49:56 »
Hey all,

This is just a quick post to announce some changes to the shop to help boost the overall value of items based on diamonds. From today on wards we are allowing x16 Diamonds to be sold to the server shop for 1000 ea per a 24 hour period, this will help push the price of diamonds up and should effectively ripple through the rest of the item prices. Remember! players cannot buy diamonds through this method, so make sure you price them higher than the default server sale price!

Players are effectively selling items too low, which is causing the server set prices of towns, chunks, horses etc. seem like such a large leap when that wasn't our intentions at all, remember we aren't in v5 anymore and the old price marking for items are no longer valid. We'll be working to help continue pushing the economy/pricing in the right direction over the rest of this week/weekend, we may also put forced price barriers on certain items in the auction so they cannot be sold below a certain threshold.

Sell your diamonds via the /shop menu

Thank you and we hope you continue to enjoy the new version!
« Last Edit: 12 Feb 2014, 10:52:53 by Fatnoob »

Nebih

Re: Kick starting the Economy
« Reply #1 on: 12 Feb 2014, 13:10:18 »
Awesome! Yes! Thank you for this! People kept selling diamonds for like 350-400 while I was trying to at around 500ish. but 1000! that's great :)

animeloverkyokyo

Re: Kick starting the Economy
« Reply #2 on: 12 Feb 2014, 15:08:56 »
Yay! <3 This will make things much simpler!

8BitCarpenter

Re: Kick starting the Economy
« Reply #3 on: 12 Feb 2014, 17:43:51 »
Remember all the prices from the end of v5? Take those prices and inflate them by a few folds.
If you see a market for a specific block, Corner that market, drive prices up. Supply and demand, Demand is high but supply is limited we should be taking advantage of that.

Darkwings

Re: Kick starting the Economy
« Reply #4 on: 12 Feb 2014, 17:56:01 »
As far as I can see, all this will do is get rid of almost all diamonds from the market and will increase even more the divide between rich and poor players.

At the moment all the noobs are trying their best to NOT spend money, in order to gather reasources to found towns, build their homes and stuff.

With fewer diamonds around, people with the most money will buy all in stock and cause the price to skyrocket even more.

To kickstart the economy you don't want to increase the price for a particular resource, because that will cause a stagnation (or worse, a thrust) for that particular market.

You want to give people the power to BUY more, not to SELL more.

To accomplish that, selling different types of junk items to the server (and not to the players) is the optimal way.

Saplings and seeds are a good example since they can be farmed, but they don't give a tremendous yeld like logs and wheat do (oak saplings are ~15-20% of the logs yeld and seeds have 33% of the wheat).

Something like 24 noobs per stack will give people something more to get money from, without taking away resources from the open market.

Nothing so substantial to cause inflation but at the same notable enough to give a hand to the people who can't grind all day or simply prefer to do other things in the game instead of mining.

Just my 2 very accurately ponderated cents.
« Last Edit: 12 Feb 2014, 17:58:05 by Darkwings »

Debo37

Re: Kick starting the Economy
« Reply #5 on: 12 Feb 2014, 22:35:51 »
As far as I can see, all this will do is get rid of almost all diamonds from the market and will increase even more the divide between rich and poor players.

At the moment all the noobs are trying their best to NOT spend money, in order to gather reasources to found towns, build their homes and stuff.

With fewer diamonds around, people with the most money will buy all in stock and cause the price to skyrocket even more.

To kickstart the economy you don't want to increase the price for a particular resource, because that will cause a stagnation (or worse, a thrust) for that particular market.

You want to give people the power to BUY more, not to SELL more.

To accomplish that, selling different types of junk items to the server (and not to the players) is the optimal way.

Saplings and seeds are a good example since they can be farmed, but they don't give a tremendous yeld like logs and wheat do (oak saplings are ~15-20% of the logs yeld and seeds have 33% of the wheat).

Something like 24 noobs per stack will give people something more to get money from, without taking away resources from the open market.

Nothing so substantial to cause inflation but at the same notable enough to give a hand to the people who can't grind all day or simply prefer to do other things in the game instead of mining.

Just my 2 very accurately ponderated cents.
I respectfully disagree with your assessment here; you assume that the economy operates in a vacuum when in fact a more accurate analogy would be that of a system utilizing a central bank - in this case, the server.

Money does not enter the economy but through ways the server allows. As of now, they are thus:

1) The /shop command
2) The Casino
3) Killing Mobs

Money only leaves the economy through ways the server allows as well. Since we don't yet have the full picture of towns, take everything with question marks with a grain of salt.

1) Taxes on Auctions
2) The Casino
3) Town and Nation Purchases
4) Town Chunk Claims (?)
5) Town Upkeep (?)
6) Wilderness Chunk Claims
7) Chest Shop Creation Tax (?)

It should be fairly obvious that if the flow of money into the economy exceeds the flow out, the size (amount of money) of the economy will increase, and vice versa if more money is flowing out than in. For all intents and purposes there are no restrictions on the amount that can potentially enter or exit - the server can give infinite money to the players, theoretically speaking.

The basic idea of any economy server is that labor within the game should be able to be translated into money, which functions as a "neutral" source of value that everyone can agree upon and thus use to interact in social ways. In the case of Minecraft, that's exchange of blocks and commodities - the only "pure" sources of capital. While money entering the economy via mobs and the Casino is significant, it is largely irrelevant given that the vast majority of money in the economy comes from sale of items to the global shop. As such, we'll consider the /shop and its impact as the sole focus of this analysis.

The current problem with the economy has been that town creation prices have been incredibly daunting in comparison to the money supply. When you look at the prices in the shop it makes sense - a player wanting to maximize the money he's receiving would logically focus on gathering the most efficient money generator.

Prior to introducing diamonds, unit prices were of two classes - Cobblestone and End Stone sold for 3nz each, whereas Gravel, Rotten Flesh, Netherrack, and Sand sold for 2nz each. Given the relative ease and abundance of Cobblestone and End Stone, these were hitherto the most efficient means of making money, so most savvy players went the route of gathering these en masse and selling to the shop for money.

If you think about it, gathering a stack of either of these probably takes somewhere in the range of one to two minutes - this assuming a good pickaxe of course. To get good pickaxes, one must have an efficient means of getting diamonds and getting xp for enchanting, which formed a bit of an entry barrier to even starting to make money. Finding diamonds isn't easy, and finding a spawner or building a mob grinder isn't easy either.

If we take a mid-line assessment of 90 seconds to gather a stack, we have a peak monetary efficiency of 192nz/90sec = 2.13nz per second.

Dividing the town creation price of 850000nz by 2.13 nz/sec, we get 398437.5 seconds.

That is 110.68 straight hours, or 4.61 straight DAYS, of time it would take of playing Noobscraft at maximal monetary efficiency if you wanted to start a town.

Also note that in practice, you absolutely CANNOT operate at that max efficiency constantly - it's broken up by the process of getting new picks (finding new diamonds, getting sticks, getting xp, enchanting), by going through and clicking the sell buttons when you max your inventory, and by dealing with other externalities (like accidentally digging over lava and having to reorient yourself). It gets a bit hand-wavey here, but I think it's fair to say that all of this overhead adds at least three times the amount of time to the process of making money.

So in a slightly-realistic but still highly optimistic scenario, it would take 13.83 straight days of playing Noobscraft to start a town on your own.

Naturally, that means people are going to have to work together to achieve township in a decent timeframe. There are already groups of members working together to make money, and the consolidation trend was accelerating as more people realized just how much work it would be to get a town.



Now, diamonds have been added to the shop for 1k sales. And at that price, they're far and away the most efficient way of making money.

Probability is certainly involved, but by mining intelligently it's realistic to assume that you can get a stack of diamonds with a Fortune III pick in roughly an hour. With some quick calculations we justify our assertion that they're a better way of moneymaking:
64diamond*1000nz/diamond = 64000nz
1 hour * 60 min/hr * 60 sec/min = 3600 seconds
64000nz/3600sec = 17.78nz/sec

That's an 8.3x increase in efficiency of moneymaking over the previous best method, which will proportionally decrease the amount of time it takes for people to make a town. Way, WAY more money will flow into the economy due to this change, so naturally as you said, Darkwings, inflation will occur. Prices will go up. But keep in mind that prices are two sided - the rich people will buy things, but the originators of things will be better compensated for them if they're smart about pricing them on the auction.

Smart players will win - buying out auctions that are cheaper than they should be, and ignoring things that are overpriced. The auction will be rolling out statistics soon, so it'll be easier for an average joe to estimate the market price for a given commodity and price their wares appropriately given the push and pull of supply & demand.

The server admins WANT inflation because they want prices to be roughly tenfold from what they were in v5, so things like selling cobble for .5nz cease to happen and broader price differentiation can be achieved.

HarryX11

Re: Kick starting the Economy
« Reply #6 on: 12 Feb 2014, 22:49:21 »
Yeah Debo but there is one problem: 16x Diamonds can be sold per day. This will greatly increase the time needed to get a town solely off of selling diamonds. That's why smart players do a mix of selling diamonds and other materials to /shop.

500manhunt

Re: Kick starting the Economy
« Reply #7 on: 12 Feb 2014, 22:58:52 »
Thx for adding diamonds to the market. But I feel as tho /shop should include crops like, wheat nether warts sugarcane pumpkins and melons this would be great if this was added!

Debo37

Re: Kick starting the Economy
« Reply #8 on: 12 Feb 2014, 23:11:13 »
Yeah Debo but there is one problem: 16x Diamonds can be sold per day. This will greatly increase the time needed to get a town solely off of selling diamonds. That's why smart players do a mix of selling diamonds and other materials to /shop.
Didn't even read that, whooooops. Yeah, so in this case it probably won't have much of a net effect on prices. It'll bump things up a bit but odds are not that much.

King0fgames_

Re: Kick starting the Economy
« Reply #9 on: 12 Feb 2014, 23:14:31 »
How are new players and poor players on the server supposed to buy any useful equipment with the limited money they have? By increasing the prices of every item, you are just enabling the rich people on the server who have no school or work to go to, and who just play all day, to make even more money by selling extreme amounts of rare items for extremely high costs! Any new player who can't afford casinos, can't sell any rare items because they are almost already gone in the mining world anywhere relatively close, will never be able to afford even one diamond without killing 1,000 mobs?? yes they can just farm dirt or cobble, but once they die from a creeper or 50 exploding next to them, and they can't just /back like the VIPs can, how do they have a chance on the server?

fish_james

Re: Kick starting the Economy
« Reply #10 on: 13 Feb 2014, 02:35:40 »
People that say that the poor will get more poor with this,  I disagree with.  Anyone cam get diamonds relatively easy if you know how to get diamonds.    Any new player could get diamonds within the first couple hours or so in reality, If you do it right

Niblek

Re: Kick starting the Economy
« Reply #11 on: 13 Feb 2014, 23:40:45 »
Any chance you can change the timer from 24 hours to 23 or at least 23 and 1/2?  24 causes time creep.

Sell on Friday at 12pm, next day you can't sell till after 12pm so you mine around and manage to do it at 12:30... next day you're stuck waiting till 12:30 and then maybe get it sold at 12:45... etc.

With a number less than 24 you can at least try to set the time of day you want to sell without having to wait a full 24 hour cycle to move it back a little.

Make sense to anyone?

HarryX11

Re: Kick starting the Economy
« Reply #12 on: 14 Feb 2014, 00:02:42 »
Any chance you can change the timer from 24 hours to 23 or at least 23 and 1/2?  24 causes time creep.

Sell on Friday at 12pm, next day you can't sell till after 12pm so you mine around and manage to do it at 12:30... next day you're stuck waiting till 12:30 and then maybe get it sold at 12:45... etc.

With a number less than 24 you can at least try to set the time of day you want to sell without having to wait a full 24 hour cycle to move it back a little.

Make sense to anyone?

+1

Or, another system that would be useful is having a server wide timer, so say midnight GMT every night, the clock resets. So if you sold one at 11:59 PM GMT, you could sell again at 12:01 since it would be the next day, but then you wouldn't be able to sell again until the next day reset.
« Last Edit: 14 Feb 2014, 00:05:03 by HarryX11 »

DigitalDoge

Re: Kick starting the Economy
« Reply #13 on: 14 Feb 2014, 00:13:48 »
How long will we be able to sell diamonds to /shop?

Darkwings

Re: Kick starting the Economy
« Reply #14 on: 15 Feb 2014, 13:16:57 »
Mainly to Debo: the problem is that from the list you made, only the /shop command is the actual way money comes into the economy.

I didn't figure the economy in a vacuum, I made a realistic prevision of what was going to happen and I don't seem to be wrong at all.

Were all those options working, we would have people doing something other than mining and still getting a reasonable amount of money, but it's not happening.

I'm not saying that list is wrong per se, I'm saying that the way it's been implemented is not really working.

Mining (and occasionally digging) is the only real way to make money and the prices aren't going down one bit.
The market for diamonds didn't improve at all and, as I said, everyone is trying their best to get more money without losing resources. That means more mining and less selling.

A real kickstarter would still be having different ways to make money but killing mobs etc for sure arent' working that way, inteded or not.

For example, the spawn rates (discussed in another topic) and the utterly abysmal bounties mean a whole lot of disappointment for anyone planning to be a monster hunter.
« Last Edit: 15 Feb 2014, 13:18:40 by Darkwings »